Fans vs. Ticket Touts for The Green Day Tour – Touts 34 Fans 0
As a rather big Green Day fan I was excited when the dates for Green Day's UK tour were released. Two gigs at the MEN (Manchester Evening News Arena) in Manchester. Tickets went on sale at 10am on 1st May. This is the story of my morning of excitement and disappointment!
UPDATE: Get the dk101.net new range of ticket tout t-shirts now available! Show your hate towards touts! - http://s.dk101.net/80328/
9:55 - I'm sat here with my card in hand ready to order 7 tickets for myself and friends. It had been rumoured that it would be limited to 2 tickets per person so I had friends standing by ready to order in case this was true.
9:58 - I starts refreshing the page waiting for that Order link to arrive.
10:00 - Order link is there, I clicks it and finds out that it is 2 per person all is fine I start the process to purchase my 2 tickets and let friends know they have to go do the same.
10:01 - I'm greeted with the "Please wait" sign on ticket master
10:03 - "No Tickets Found" appears on screen! Presuming this is just an error with the site due to clicking to fast I goes through the process again, and again, and again. Finding the same problems, cries of "It's sold out" appear through MSN and text messages.
10:05 - I visit 3 other ticket selling websites only to see a massive "SOLD OUT" sign plastered across all the Standing tickets for both days!
10:10 - After many phone calls and chats about what we are going to do I decide to check e-bay. A search for "Green Day MEN" results in 6 pairs of tickets already available. This is 10 minutes after the tickets officially went on sale. Prices range from £80 starting bid to £250.
10:30 - The same search on ebay now reveals 34 tickets available to purchase on ebay! The buy it now tickets have vanished giving some lucky touts a nice hefty profit.
So here lies the issues with ticket sales... Why is it possible for 34 tickets to be available on ebay at this point in time for over double the price, however it's impossible for me to get hold of 7 tickets for dedicated fans! Something NEEDS to be done about the state of ticket sales in this country! Limiting tickets to 2 per person clearly isn't working and all it does it mess up legitimate fans. For example, if we now want to go purchase seated tickets, we need to purchase 7 of them. The odds on us managing to get 7 seats together are probably less than winning the lottery, which will leave the possibilty of 1 of our friends having to sit alone. THat's not a fun time for anyone!
I think it's time we started having Photo tickets! Sites such as ticketmaster have profiles of people and when tickets are printed they appear with your photo and name! This would not stop people like me ordering for friends as you could have your account set up with details of all your friends so you could specify which people you were buying tickets for. This would completely stop touts as you would know that if your ticket didn't have your face on it you'd just get rejected anyway!
It's time something was done about this! Why should real fans be expected to pay over the top prices on ebay due to ticket sellers inability to think of a better way to verify ticket purchases!
December 3rd, 2009 at 14:11
Nice article, however, slightly out-dated. Ticket sales have greatly changed since 2003 and I can vouch for that first hand. Back in 2003 I was able to get tickets for a gig for around 3 days before they would be sold out, I’m referring to standing tickets which are the best tickets available for most people in these gigs. However since then there has been a large increase in the number of “Touts.” I could possibly put this down to security measures put in place by festivals like Glastonbury possibly changed the areas “touts” were spending the majority of their money or possibly just down to the fact that many more people are trying to make money as “touts.” This doesn’t however change the fact that Trading Standards have been involved in “Ticket Touting” in various events in the past including the Ban on Football ticket re-selling. Obviously this isn’t related to tickets to gigs but it is the same principle in effect and it doesn’t change the fact that tickets are selling out and appear on eBay within 10 minutes of them going on sale, this never used to happen!
Maybe we are not “Forced” to pay over the odds for tickets (and in fact I refused to pay the inflated costs and missed out on the Green Day gig in question out of principle) however the fact that “touts” are making gigs sell out so much faster than they used to is therefore creating a “Forced” attitude to purchase tickets. It’s actually getting to the state where it’s easier (and in some cases only possible) to buy tickets from eBay than it is from ticket retailers.
Yes I would like to see a method in place with tickets where the price would not be inflated by a group of people creating a kind of monopoly on over priced tickets. Would putting a photograph on a ticket really hurt the world so much? No I don’t think so at all. I showed a perfect method for ticketmaster to stop “touts” from purchasing from them here…
http://blog.dk101.net/2009/05/01/beating-the-ticket-tout-problem-once-and-for-all/
Would this effect your business so much? Yes it would! However a decent entrepreneur (ie a person who can think of business ideas for themselves and not just copy a structure in place) could easily convert a “Touting” style “business” into a good money making scheme selling tickets. But at the same time wouldn’t be causing “true fans” to have to purchase tickets at the inflated prices.
I would also question what makes someone who wins the lottery, has a rich parent, has no children lives at home with parents with no responsibilities or one of the other many people who “Got Lucky” in life more worthy and “deserves” a ticket to a gig (for £500) over someone who works 2 jobs has a house and family to support, bills to pay and can’t justify £500 for 1 ticket but would really like to see a band they’ve always wanted to see. Do you questionnaire the people you sell tickets to to determine how much they “deserve” a ticket before you sell it to them?
Unfortunately there is a clear “Morality Vs. Greed” argument here and that is one that will never be solved.
December 3rd, 2009 at 13:34
“Again, I would not feel annoyed if I couldn’t afford the retail price of something as I know that is my own personal failing for not working hard enough or saving up to purchase it at retail price. When someone purchases vast quantities of something at retail value to stop other people purchasing it at the standard retail price and then charging an inflated profit this is where things become “Unfair””
No it’s not unfair, because everybody has as much chance to purchase tickets as a tout. If I wanted just 2 tickets to greenday for example, then I know I would get them, full stop. Not because I have some “advantage” or seek to “stop others getting them”, but because I do my homework.
December 3rd, 2009 at 13:30
Like a ticket tout then – I’ve just let go a set of eddie izzard tickets for £5. I won’t go bust however because somebody else just purchased some Paul Weller tickets at a 100% mark-up.
Again you forget the main point – nobody is forced to pay over the odds.
Somebody wants a row A for £500; I want the money for a row A. Everybody’s happy. If somebody cannot afford the £500 then it deserves to go to the person who can, as often, but not always, economic position represents effort and merit of achievement.
You don’t want legislation, but you want to interfere into the marked and put artificial and fixed prices in place. Well great; where will you stop then? There are hundreds of industries where you could do the same and it would destroy the economy. Socialism does not work.
Here is a good article to educate you:
http://www.samuelbrittan.co.uk/text162_p.html
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:48
Oh I should also add that if the dealer outside the porsche dealer sold 3 cars for £300k, £500k and £1 million. He’s therefore made £1.8million Net sales. Or £300k Gross Profit by selling 3 cars. He can then sell the remaining 7 cars for £10 each if he wishes and still be making profit, so he would not go bust in the situation above.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:37
See you’ve started to twist what I’m saying to suit yourself now. The person selling the cars outside the dealership is effectively a “Tout” he has bought as many cars as he could from the dealer for £150,000 to stop anyone else buying them and is then selling them for the “Supply and Demand” price. If people are paying the £1million price tag then that is the “Supply and Demand Price”
Your space ship has no bearing on the argument because the “expensive” price is the cost of the item itself and not a “Tout” purchasing as many Space ships as possible to sell them for a ridiculous profit once the original dealers have sold out.
Again, I would not feel annoyed if I couldn’t afford the retail price of something as I know that is my own personal failing for not working hard enough or saving up to purchase it at retail price. When someone purchases vast quantities of something at retail value to stop other people purchasing it at the standard retail price and then charging an inflated profit this is where things become “Unfair”
However. Your first answer to the question I put to you was correct. Your answer was “I’d be annoyed” whether you would “call for legislation” or not is your personal choice. I’ve never asked for laws to be brought into place to stop “Touting” all I asked for was a system be put in place by the ticket retailers to solve the problem from their end.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:25
He would therefore have to cut the price or go bust. My prices are cut if there are no buyers like anybody else’s. If people are buying those tickets then the price is right. How somebody “feels” about it is the same as asking how somebody “feels” when they can’t afford any number of things.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:23
*would not call for legislation to prevent it – correction.
December 3rd, 2009 at 12:23
I’d be annoyed; but I would view it as completely normal and would call for legislation to prevent it. If people were still buying them at £1,000,000 then that would be the going rate. I suspect however that isn’t the going rate therefore the seller would go bust.
If they were selling them at that price then that is the legitimate market value. For example I might “work hard” wishing to acquire a space craft. The fact that they are so expensive does not make it “unfair” – it just reflects what people are willing to pay.
My profits are testament to that; the car argument is not valid because a dealer sellign at £1,000,000 would not get any buyers.
December 3rd, 2009 at 11:05
Again this seems to all boil down to the profit argument. As I said in my previous post I would be more than happy to not manage to get a ticket due to fans paying for tickets and the retail price. Retail price being the price that Ticketmaster etc are selling them for. This isn’t envy of the profit you would be making, or my annoyance at the “Supply and Demand” Argument purely the frustration at not being able to purchase tickets due to “Ticket Touts” flooding the websites and buying every ticket available for resale. Lets use your Porsche example..
Ok, so you’ve worked hard knowing that the new model Porsche 911 Special Edition Limited run is being released at 9am on Monday morning. They are selling for £150,000 at all dealers around the country, you know the wholesale price is only £100,000 but that doesn’t bother you, you understand that dealers have overheads. You have your money ready in your black briefcase attached to your wrist with your handcuffs and you’re stood outside the dealer excited about getting to drive away with your brand new car!
The doors open, you and the other people run to the door in a mad rush to get in. There’s a crush at the door as so many people try to get in at once but you have a good laugh about it knowing there should be enough Porsche’s to go around since you’re here so early! You finally get in, you get to the sales person and pass over your completed form with all your details on, colour, size, extras. With an unfortunate look on his face the dealer turns to you and says “Sorry, we’re all sold out”
You’re crushed… Gutted! You really wanted that car. You log onto your facebook from your phone and find a couple of friends actually managed to get their version of the new car and a few also gutted about missing out. You walk out the store and see a few people driving off in their new cars with a happy smile on their faces. You’re pleased for them because they got something they really wanted. As you’re heading to catch the bus home (since you didn’t drive, there was no point) you see one of the guys that managed to push in front of you all that time ago at the door way.
That guy is stood there with 10 cars all parked around him, there’s a crowd of people around him all throwing money at him, amounts you have never seen, £300,000 from one person, £500,000, £1million. You ask him if he’s selling the cars. “Yes I am” he says. You smile and get ready to hand over your fresh, crisp notes from your briefcase. He turns to you and says “Sorry, I’m selling them for £1million now since that’s the last price I got. Why would I sell one to you for £150,000?” you explain that you had worked hard for that money and were really looking forward to driving away in your new car. He still refuses to sell to you giving reasons like “Supply and Demand” and “Why should I not be allowed to make a profit? Maybe you should work harder and have enough money to buy from me in future!”
How would you feel!?
December 3rd, 2009 at 09:53
Again though your post, while well-written, is based on several faulty premises, all of which are based on a misguided theme running through your post i.e. that somehow a business’ profits must somehow be proportionate to their overheads – that they are only entitled to a certain profit margin.
” However I still find it very unfair that within 30 minutes of tickets going on sale to this gig there were 34 tickets on eBay for over double the price, this form of over charging would be very inappropriate in a business related world however you judge it as “Supply and Demand.”
Why? If people were not willing to pay the “over-charged” prices then touts would not be able to charge them. The idea that somehow people have to purchase events tickets because these are the only prices available is nonsense – tickets are not a necesity like water or food and anyone who buys them is making an educated and free choice with his/her money.
“The chances of me getting a ticket are highly reduced by the pure number of “touts” purchasing tickets in the same way as me.”
Well yes, but the chance of you getting tickets are also greatly reduced by the number of ordinary buyers – do you stop them logging on at the same time as you aswell?
“I would be more than happy to not get a ticket to a gig if I knew that the tickets went straight to the Fans for the price they were meant to be sold for without a hefty profit being made by someone for managing to press “Buy” first and then be able to press “Sell” on eBay.”
Again, I would be happy if I could get a Porshe at the wholesale price and not the retail one, it doesn’t work like that though. Because people are willing to pay more a middleman will always appear untill the primary source starts charging the true market price – that means when ticketmaster start making all the money.
You seem to also imply that the amount of profit should be related to the work done (physical work judging by what you say about clicking “buy” and then later “sell”. Again, why would that be? Look at footballers. A lot of people say this is “unfair” but it’s irrelevant, because they are being paid what people are willing to pay. Why should that bother anyone? If you don’t like it, don’t pay. Simple. If people did this on mass then the price will come down. But they won’t, because they’re selfish, therefore it’s rich then for the public to decry touts for being selfish when the whole reason they sell is because of selfishness.
“If you want to compare this to real business and the profit they make then feel free to purchase a shop, employ staff, keep up your business overheads and then come back to me to justify the profit that people put on these tickets!”
There is such a thing as a sole trader who doesn’t employ anyone. I am a business, I have overheads, and again, why do I have to justify profits? People are not forced to hand over their money out of necesity like, for example, you could argue they are for gas or electric or water. People pay the prices I charge at completely free will therefore it’s my perogative how much profit I make. I also pay tax so am already contributing more than somebody on a lower income to the national economy.
“o I do not have any problems with people making money. A local company, that I have had many dealings with in the past, buy tickets and then sell them on with a reasonable markup. But they also include transport to the gig with the tickets. Now I can accept this as a reliable business model as they provide an extra service and the markup on the tickets is not as large as “Touts” tend to add. I have no form of “envy” and maybe there is a small amount of research involved however not enough to justify the amount of profit made by “touts””
Again, there is no moral need for a business to justify its “profits”. I don’t believe profits are wrong, therefore I don’t feel the need to justify the amount of them. Everybody who pays for tickets does so at free will.
“if all “touts” were to set up a ticketmaster style business using your current business model of “Supply and Demand” you would see a huge difference in the business you would make. If you were allocated a set amount of tickets (like a ticket seller would be) and then went to sell them at the prices you currently charge then you would ALWAYS be the last companies to sell your tickets purely because people would purchase them from cheaper stores. I would also think (though can be sure) that you would also be governed by law (or at least the companies providing the tickets) to sell them for a competitive price and not for the current prices being charged.”
Totally wrong. You are saying that touts charge this because they can. No. Touts charge the prices they do because that’s what people will pay. That is supply and demand BY DEFINITION. There are plenty of touts as you remark and there is much competition to offer the lowest prices. That is high, again I repeat, because that’s what people will pay for the top seats. They will pay a lot more than for the crap seats which are priced at the very same price very often.
“if you were allocated a set amount of tickets (like a ticket seller would be) and then went to sell them at the prices you currently charge then you would ALWAYS be the last companies to sell your tickets purely because people would purchase them from cheaper stores.”
Well we all are allocated the same amount of tickets in that we all have an equal chance of purchasing the same amount of tickets. If not, please tell me why that is not the case.
“Although “Touts” are not one sole company, if they were they would be effectively be creating a Monopoly, something I think you will find is highly frowned upon in this country”
As you said, they are not one sole company, they are many, therefore benefitting the consumer.
“I would, however, like a chance to get my tickets legitimately or not be forced to purchase tickets at double the price they were originally sold for just to make a “Tout” a “Quick Buck”
Legitimately? What does that mean?, legally? Because I’m not selling illegally. Buying and selling tickets is indeed not illegal.
Forced to buy tickets? Who is “forcing” you to buy tickets?
“Quick buck”. What is wrong with making a “quick buck”. You say you are not envious re touting, well then what is the problem with making a “quick buck”. Why use it in a derogatory way? Surely if there is no envy in what you are saying then you should be happy for people making easy money.